Wayne Camp's

DIALOGUE WITH A MORMON

To the Mormon Teachers:

Dear Sirs:
In view of the fact that you have been talking to Brenda Haley who is a member of the church which I pastor, I would like to meet you in her presence to discuss the following questions listed here. May I assure you in the beginning that failure on your part to either answer these in writing or in person to me in the presence of Brenda Haley will be an indication that you are afraid to have your doctrines investigated openly. If you so desire, I would even be willing to meet you in a public discussion or debate concerning the matters herein discussed.

1. Is there a trinity in the Godhead, or are there three Gods as your founder and prophet Joseph Smith taught?

2. Does God the Father have a body of flesh and bones that is tangible like man's and the Son have another body of flesh and bones that is tangible like man's?

3. Is there a god who is female as the Father is male?

4. Are there many other gods in addition to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

5. Have there been many worlds and gods before this one, and will there be many worlds and gods after this one?

6. Were all gods once men?

7. May men become gods?

8. Do you expect to become a god?

9. Do you expect to have your own world over which you will rule?

10. If you do expect to have your own world, how will you populate it?

11. Is Adam now our God?

12. Did Adam have more than one wife?

13. Is Adam and Michael, the arch-angel, the same person?

14. Do you believe that God can create something from nothing?

15. Did God create the spirits of men and angels and animals and plants before He created their physical bodies and put them here on earth?

16. Were the spirits of animals, plants, and men created before the creation of the earth. or after?

17. Do you agree With the following doctrine found in the Mormon Doctrine, page 157: "This earth was not the first of the Lord's creation. An infinite number of worlds have come rolling into existence at his command. Each is called earth: each is inhabited with his spirit children; each abides the particular law given to it; and each will play its part in the redemption, salvation, and exhaltation of that infinite host of the children of an almighty God."

18. Do you agree with the following statement made by Joseph F. Smith in his book, MAN: HIS ORIGIN AND DESTINY, page 351, 355? "All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity;" as spirits they were the "offspring of celestial parentage."

19. Do you believe that the intelligent part of man has always existed?

20. Are some men born black with great disadvantages while others are born white with great advantages because of obedience more or less in a pre-existent state?

21. Where was the garden of Eden located according to Mormon doctrine?

22. Where, according to Mormon doctrine, will the New Jerusalem be built in the latter days?

23. Why did Adam choose to eat the forbidden fruit after Eve had eaten of it? Do you think this was wise?

24. Did Adam and Eve sin in partaking of the forbidden fruit?

25. Does man have the ability within himself to choose and to do that which is spiritually good?

26. What is the difference between Jesus Christ and other men?

27. Did Adam beget the fleshly body of Jesus Christ and other men?

28. Who was being married, according to Mormon doctrine, at the marriage in Cana of Galilee when Jesus turned the water into wine?

29. Do you believe that Jesus was married, and if so, to whom?

30. Do you believe that there is a general and unconditional salvation that comes to all men and an individual, conditional salvation which comes only to those who choose it?

31. Who, if any, outside the Mormon church will receive individual salvation which will entitle him to heaven?

32. Are there some sins that the blood of Christ cannot cleanse even if one repents and believes and is baptized?

33. What must one do in order to have and enjoy eternal life?

34. Will one who has never been baptized be damned?

35. Can one be saved eternally without baptism?

36. How is remission of sins obtained?

37. Is one who has never been baptized damned?

38. After one has been baptized, does he receive Holy Ghost baptism that is manifest by Speaking in tongues?

39. Is it possible for one who has repented, believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, been baptized by immersion, had hands laid on him and received the gift of the Holy Ghost to ever be lost and condemned?

40. Is one saved through his own acts and by his own merits and_works?

41. What is a "celestial marriage"?

42. What is the difference between a celestial marriage and a regular marriage?

43. Does celestial marriage affect one's salvation in any way?

44. Where was the church of the Lord Jesus Christ before 1830?

45. Can an individual be saved out- side of the Mormon church?

46. Will he remain saved, if he can be, if he remains outside the Mormon church? How were men saved before April 6, 1830?

47. Why, since the Mormon church believes baptism is essential to salvation, do you not baptize infants?

48. Is an infant born with a depraved nature?

49. Do you believe in baptizing people for those, or in the place of those, who have already died?

50. If you do, does this mean that you believe in salvation by proxy?

51. Does baptism for one's ancestors or its absence in any way affect the individual's salvation?

52. When did the Lord Jesus Christ institute the Lord's Supper, and among whom?

53. What elements do you use in the observance of the supper?

54. Concerning the future, upon what continent do you believe that Zion will be built?

55. When Christ reigns on the earth, where will He locate His throne?

56. Were Jesus and Lucifer brothers?

57. What is the celestial kingdom, and who will be there?

58. What is the terrestrial kingdom, and who will be there?

59. What is the telestial kingdom, and who will be there?

60. Who are the sons of perdition?

61. Is it a sin for a man to have more than one wife either publicly or secretly?

62. Who were the Nephrites, and where were they located?

63. Do you believe that the sixty-six books contained in the Holy Bible can be called the Word of God?

64. Are the Scriptures all-sufficient as a rule of faith and practice?

65. At what age does a Mormon boy normally become a deacon?

66. In the next world will a man's wife continue to bear children?

67. Will a man have more than one wife in the celestial kingdom?

68. Is it permissible for him to have more than one wife in this world or in eternity?

69. If one does not believe and confess that Joseph Smith is a prophet, can he be saved?

70. If one denies the veracity of the Book of Mormon, is he an anti-Christ, or of anti-Christ?

71. If one has repented, believed, and has been baptized, etc. and then commits certain types of sin and is lost, what is necessary for him to be saved again? Must he be baptized a second time by immersion in water?

72. Does God honor any marriages performed outside the auspices of the Mormon church?

73. Can one married outside of a Mormon temple ever become a god, according to Mormon doctrine? If not, what do they become?

74. May a celestial marriage be performed in behalf of someone who is dead and was married outside the temple?

75. Do you agree with the following doctrine set forth by Herber Kimball in the Salt Lake City Tabernacle on February 1, 1857, and reported in the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES Volume 4. Page 209? "My wives have got to live their religion. Suppose I lost the whole of them before I go into the spiritual world, do you think I will be destitute there? No. The Lord says there are more there than there are here. They increase there a good deal faster than they do here, because they do not call on the doctors to kill their offspring. In the spiritual world we will go to Brother Joseph, and he will say to us, ‘Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?' 'They are back yonder; they would not come with us.’ 'Never mind,’ says Joseph, ‘here are thousands; have all you want."

76. Even if you do not believe in plural marriages either secretly, sealed or otherwise, is it not true that during much of the Mormon church's history plural marriages have been practiced? Is is not also true that these plural marriages only ceased when many Mormons were jailed for this polygamous practice?

77. What do you believe about hell?

I would appreciate your answers to this list of questions in writing, if you plan to answer them, as soon as possible. If you will meet with me and with Brenda Haley to discuss these, I would appreciate very much your calling me at this number, 745-8927, so that we may arrange a time for this discussion.

Again I remind you that failure on your part to answer these either in writing or in person as before specified, will be evidence that you are afraid to let your doctrines be investigated in the light of the Holy Scriptures. May I remind you of the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 3:20: "For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." Of those who do the truth, Jesus said, "but he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:21.

If you have the truth, you should be willing to let it be investigated. If you do not have the truth, then your failure to meet me in answer to these questions will be evidence that you do not have the truth. I will be patiently waiting your answer either in writing or in person.

Sincerely,

Wayne Camp, Pastor Beverly Manor Baptist Church

Washington, I11. 61571

CAMP-MORMON QUESTION-ANSWER SESSION

CAMP: Do you want to put any kind of introduction on your tape?

MORMON: It’s alright.

CAMP: Of course I think basically the letter explains why. Brenda here is the reason that I wanted to discuss this with you. If I understood her correctly, I had mentioned some things that the Mormon Church believes, and this had been---someone had said that this wasn't really true, and so I think that the only way to find out whether it's true or not is to sit down and discuss it, and discuss these doctrines that are involved, and some others. I mean I think it'll be educational for me as much as anything else because, I mean I do have quite a bit of information, but I read a book a few years ago, a lengthy book, on it, and old book, written about 1850 or 60 along there, about it. It's in the library in Little Rock, Arkansas, where I went to school, and I don't have access to it at the moment.

MORMON: I am interested--- What book did you get these questions out of?

CAMP: I got it out of three different books. I got it out of this book on THE FOUR MAJOR CULTS, and MORMONISM UNDER THE SEARCHLIGHT, the BOOK OF MORMON, and I guess that's all. Some of them just simply you know from the things that I had read.

MORMON: I have copies of all these books.

CAMP: I didn't get the questions from out of there. They don't have the questions in there, but I formed the questions from research that I had done. So that's the thing, I mean, as far as I'm concerned we'll just start with the first question.

MORMON: Oh, I'd like to before we start say that I'm speaking for me. Now I am not speaking for the Mormon Church. Nobody can do that except the head of the Church.

CAMP: Who is the head?

MORMON: Well, if you want to quibble over it, the Saviour is the head of the Church. The head of the physical organization on the earth is a man by the name of Joseph Fielding Smith. He is the one who is empowered to speak for the Church as a whole. I am speaking only for what I know, what I believe, what I have come to the conclusion of in my studies Of the Scripture and of Church writings.

CAMP: In other words, I mean I understand that, in other words you will be speaking, though you'll not be saying, "Well I don't agree with the Church on this," but you are going to be saying, "This is what I understand the Church to teach."

MORMON: Well, yes.

CAMP: In other words, I want to know what you understand the Church to teach, not an official statement, but what you understand the Church to teach, that's what I'm after. The first question is, "Is there a trinity in the Godhead, or are there three gods as your founder and prophet Joseph Smith taught?

MORMON: Okay. My answer is I believe that there are three individual separate persons. I do not necessarily believe that there are three gods. I believe that there is God-God, or what we would call Elohim, and then the Saviour, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Three separate and distinct personages.

CAMP: But you are aware that Joseph Smith preached that there were three gods?

MORMON: Well, many churches believe God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

CAMP: But he believed in a plurality of gods.

MORMON: Oh, well, I do too. But a plurality of gods does not necessarily have to do with the God-head or the trinity. We get into that in some detail later on.

CAMP: Okay. I mean, I just want your answers on record. Alright, then does God the Father have a body of flesh and bones that is tangible like man's and God the Son, of course, have another body of flesh and bones that is tangible like man's?

MORMON: Yes. One word, yes. I believe so. My teachings, from what I have learned in the thirty-two years in Mormonism, I believe, yes, they do.

CAMP: In other words, there's two physical, fleshly bodies, flesh and bones?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Okay. What do you do about the Scripture that says, "God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth"?

MORMON: I'll go along with that. You have a body. How can you worship Him with your body according to this? Then there are all kinds of other Scriptures also, and I think I indicated on the phone that I don't care to play Scripture scrabble, tit for tat, you know, back and forth.

CAMP: Arraying one Scripture against another?

MORMON: Right.

CAMP: Alright. Now this one I want clearly answered. Is there a god who is female as the Father is male?

MORMON: I kinda had to laugh over that. If you want to get right down--god is a masculine term. Goddess would be feminine.

CAMP: Alright, I wasn't striving for grammatical perfection there. I'm just using Joseph Smith's term.

MORMON: Okay, I do believe that God is married and He does have a wife. Or if you want something to blow your mind, that He may have several wives. We'll get into that later on, too.

CAMP: In other words, you do believe that that wife or wives is a goddess or goddesses?

MORMON: Well, if her husband's a god then I would say yes. My belief, not necessarily speaking officially for Mormonism.

CAMP: In other words, there's female...

MORMON: Yes, not a personage that we worship.

CAMP: Alright, I think that we'll get into some details later on. Now, wait a minute, I want to stop there. It's not someone you worship. Well you mean you wouldn't worship a goddess?

MORMON: Your term, using goddess now...

CAMP: I'm using your term.

MORMON: Alright, but you're getting back to the point having something to do with God the Father, and are you somehow indicating goddess the mother? I don't get quite what you're getting at.

CAMP: Well, Joseph Smith said that there was, and I believe it's in the COVENANTS AND DOCTRINES, that there's a mother god just like there is a father god. Now, if you worship the father, do you worship the mother?

MORMON: I would say we don't worship, we honour. We would honour her, but not worship. The worship is for the father.

CAMP: Okay. Now are there many other gods in addition to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? And we'll go ahead and say gods and goddesses since you want to use that term.

MORMON: That's question number four, right?

CAMP: Right.

MORMON: Alright, my answer is yes. The principle of eternal progression would demand that there would be many who have achieved godhood.

CAMP: The "principle of eternal progression." In other words you believe that there are many gods?

MORMON: Yes. But there is one god with whom we have dealings.

CAMP: Now, are those other gods worshiped? Are they worthy of worship?

MORMON: Yes. By people with whom they have contact and deal.

CAMP: Okay.

MORMON: Now, I'd like to bring one thing right in here. Nearly everyone of your questions touch on something we call the plan of salvation which I have some diagrams that I had xeroxed off, and I thought you might be interested in, which shows in graphic form what we consider to be where we started and where we eventually hope to end up, and your questions touch on that.

CAMP: Touch on the plan of salvation?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Well then let me ask you a question that is not on the list. If a person does not believe these things that you set forth, like the female counterpart of God and many gods, could he be saved?

MORMON: We'll get into that. Your concept of salvation, or being saved, is very different from mine. To me salvation is being saved from eternal death, and salvation is something that was brought about through the atonement of the Saviour, through His death, and all mankind then is resurrected. We'll get into that in one your other questions, but I'll bring lt UP now. To me that's what salvation is, is being saved from death, the grave.

CAMP: Physical death?

MORMON: Right, Physical death. And everybody has that whether they want it or not.

CAMP: Oh. Uh-huh. What about the Scripture that says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned. he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son Of God"?

MORMON: Condemned for what? Or to what?

CAMP: Well, the wages of sin is death.

MORMON: Death from what?

CAMP: I mean, I'm asking you.

MORMON: Alright. This, what we call the plan of salvation, or man's eternal progression, what you can be, or what you will be, or what you want to be depends on you and the actions that you are willing to do or go through, or what you are willing to accept if you will accept the saviour. Steps.

CAMP: I think that we will deal with this a little bit more later on, but since it has come up, let me ask you this. Then you believe that salvation that is through Christ, that all men have that, whether they want it or not?

MORMON: The salvation from death? Yes. Salvation from the grave? Yes.

CAMP: In other words what was accomplished in the atonement of Christ, that all men have that whether they want it or not.

MORMON: Yes. To my understanding, this is the way I believe.

CAMP: Alright. Then everything else involved in salvation is dependent on the individual?

MORMON: To a great extent, yes.

CAMP: In other words, salvation is by works.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Okay. I just wanted to establish that fact. I knew that was true, (It was true that the Mormon believed in salvation by works. RWC) but I wanted to establish it. Alright.

MORMON: Let me say that there is a little bit of faith that goes along in that, too.

CAMP: A little bit of faith and a lot of works.

MORMON: Well, who am I to say?

CAMP: You said to a great extent it's dependent on you...

MORMON: Right.

CAMP: And a little bit of faith...

MORMON: No! Well, I'll take that back. A lot of faith, but who am I to say what a lot of faith is and what a little faith is, I mean, you’re...

CAMP: Well, I mean you ought to know what a lot and a little is if you've got any intelligence at all.

MORMON: If you have faith, you have faith.

CAMP: I mean I figure I know what a little and a lot is. Alright. And I wasn't saying that to say you aren't intelligent; I'm just making a point. Now, Number 5. Have there been many worlds and gods before this one, and will there be many worlds and gods after this one?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: What Scriptural basis do you have for that argument?

MORMON: Considerable.

CAMP: Could you give me one Scripture?

MORMON: Not at this present time, no. If you wish to get into that at a further time, well I can prepare them. I’ll be glad to.

CAMP: You will be willing to make another appointment?

MORMON: Oh, sure.

CAMP: And you will give me Scripture for these beliefs?

MORMON: If this is what you want. There is considerable Scripture reference in my little mimeographed or dittoed sheet, not dittoes, xeroxed sheet.

CAMP: Alright. Were all gods once men?

MORMON: To my understanding, yes.

CAMP: Including the one in the trinity?

MORMON: The one that we accept as God, the Father of Elohim or whatever you ...yes.

CAMP: He was once a man just like you and I?

MORMON: Yes, he was.

CAMP: Okay. May men become gods?

MORMON: Again, yes. That's number seven, right?

CAMP: Right.

MORMON: Here's what I have as my answer: Men may become gods if they are willing to keep the commandments, accept Christ's atonement, remain faithful to the end; unfortunately few will make it.

CAMP: Now there's one thing that you said there that I want to ask you about. You said a while ago they have the benefits of Christ's atonement whether they want it or not. Now you have just said that they will become gods if they are willing to accept Christ's atonement. Well, they don't have to be willing if they've got 1t whether they want it or not. Did you not say that they had it if they want it or not?

MORMON: I said they have resurrection whether they want it or not.

CAMP: Well, I asked you specifically the benefits of Christ's atonement, and you said yes.

MORMON: And one of them is resurrection, yes.

CAMP: Alright. What are the other benefits of Christ's atonement then? If one of them is resurrection.

MORMON: His atonement has opened the door to this eternal progression, or the plan of salvation, as it is called. And that you either accept or reject.

CAMP: Alright I'm not saying I agree or disagree. I want the questions answered. I mean, I could argue with you about these things, but I think we had an agreement that we would just discuss-- I mean, there are some questions I have about the way you answer them; that's why I'm asking some additional questions that are not on the list. Now this one: Do you expect to become a god?

MORMON: Yes, I do.

CAMP: On what basis?

MORMON: What do you mean by that?

CAMP: On what basis do you expect to become a god?

MORMON: What makes me want to become a god?

CAMP: No. No. No, I guess we'd all want to be a god if we could. But, on what grounds, not desire, but how do you expect to achieve godship?

MORMON: By a heck of a lot of works, by keeping a heck of a lot of commandments, by going through certain ordinances. That's about it.

CAMP: Okay. In other words you are going to achieve godhood on your own, by your own efforts.

MORMON: No. No. Well, my efforts have a lot to do with it. Yes.

CAMP: A "heck" of a lot of work and a little faith?

MORMON: Well, if you want to get back to that.

CAMP: (Laughs) Alright. Incidentally, I don't use words like that. I was just quoting you. I think that is vain language. Alright. Now do you expect to have your own world over which you rule?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Where are you going to get this world?

MORMON: I'll probably create it myself.

CAMP: You're going to create yourself a world?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright. I'd appreciate it if you would speak a little bit louder. I don't know whether our tape recorders can pick it up. I mean, you won't be offending me. I'm speaking loudly because I want to be sure it's on the recorder. If you expect to have your own world, how will you populate it?

MORMON: With my wife.

CAMP: Singular?

MORMON: Well, that's...Oh, but of course I do not know whether we will have such a thing as polygamy in the here-after; I would hope so.

CAMP: You would hope so?

MORMON: I sure would.

CAMP: Okay.

MORMON: I think your knowledge of Mormonism right now is quite superficial, and what I'm having to say is a little bit strange, to say the least.

CAMP: No. I think I know more about it than you think I do, or I wouldn't be hitting at where I am.

MORMON: Alright.

CAMP: But there was someone telling Brenda Haley that I wasn't telling her the truth about polygamy and so forth, and I wanted to prove that I was, and I've just proven it, that you want to have a lot of wives.

MORMON: I sure do.

CAMP: Of course, I know that you would be putting yourself in an un...wel1 I won't even ask that.

MORMON: No, I don’t think I would be.

CAMP: Alright. Well, maybe I ought to ask you. But I won't. Is the God that we know now as God the Father, we're at the Elohim, or actually the correct way to pronounce it is Elohim, is He the God, is Adam, are Adam and Elohim the same person?

MORMON: No, they are not.

CAMP: You do not accept that?

MORMON: No, I do not. You are obviously referring to Brigham Young's statement about Adam and God.

CAMP: He said, "When our father, Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body and brought Eve, one his wives with him. He helped to make and organize this world." Do you believe that? That he helped to create this world?

MORMON: That Adam helped to create this world? Yes, I do. You are quoting from volume three of the GENERAL DISCOURSES.

CAMP: Well, yeh...well this says one, But then this might be a different edition.

MORMON: No. The same theme is touched on in several different sermons.

CAMP: Oh, Now, I want to clarify this, because I gathered from the things that I read, you do not believe that ...well, let me ask you this, do you believe what Brigham Young said?

MORMON: In which statement?

CAMP: As that Adam and God are evidently synonomous?

MORMON: No, I do not. I do not believe he made that sort of statement.

CAMP: You do not believe it? Well, what was he saying then? He called him the, he is Michael the archangel, the ancient of days. Now the ancient of days refers to God the Father in the Scriptures, in the Bible, in the Book of Daniel particularly. He's called the ancient of days. That's God the Father.

MORMON: Does that necessarily make what Brigham Young was talking about mean God the Father, though?

CAMP: Well, he calls him the ancient of days, not one of the ancient of days, but the ancient of days.

MORMON: I was not there at the sermon, I do not know the full context of what he was talking about. Although I do have the transcript of his sermon.

CAMP: If that's what he meant, do you accept it?

MORMON: No, I do not.

CAMP: In other words, even though he was the official head of the church at that time, earthly, we'll say earthly, I mean I'd argue with you about Christ being the head of the Mormon Church, but I'm going to leave that, we're not going to discuss that at the moment. But you would reject what he said if that's what he meant?

MORMON: If that's what he meant, yes, I do reject that.

CAMP: Did Adam have more than one wife?

MORMON: If he did, I do not know where he got her from, that is, if that was here on the earth. I don't particularly know what you mean by that.

CAMP: Well, he said when our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. Now if I understand it, Brigham Young could speak officially for the church. That would be official doctrine, right?

MORMON: Not necessarily.

CAMP: Oh? Even though he was the official head of the church?

MORMON: Yes, there is a procedural way of doing things where the church doctrine is set up, and just because HE happened to mention it in a sermon does not mean that that has to be accepted as official church doctrine. Do what you say from your pulpit here, is that to be interpreted as official Baptist Church doctrine?

CAMP: No, because the church does not believe that I preach under inspiration. If I understand Mormon Doctrine right, the official head of the church speaks as a prophet of God.

MORMON: Alright, and when he says, "Thus saith the Lord," then we accept it.

CAMP: You mean he should get up and preach without backing it up with a "Thus saith the Lord"...

MORMON: Well, if that's what he wants to do it...then fine with me. But I do not have to accept it, unless he says "Thus saith the Lord," and it's accepted as a revelation and the word of the Lord.

CAMP: But just saying "Thus saith the Lord", does that make it so?

MORMON: In his instance I would say yes.

CAMP: In other words, if he preached a statement with "Thus saith the Lord,’ then you would accept that as authoritative?

MORMON: Yes, I will. I do.

CAMP: Alright. In other words, you've got your own pope, who speaks with infallibility when he speaks in official...

MORMON: Wel-l-l-l-l.

CAMP: Would you say that when one of the leaders, well now it’s Joseph Fielding Smith, if he speaks with "Thus saith the Lord," if he prefaces a statement with “thus saith the Lord," would you hold to the idea that he is infallible when he speaks there?

MORMON: Yes, I will.

CAMP: Alright, I just wondered if you all believed in the infallibility of your leaders.

MORMON: Not leaders, plural. Leader.

CAMP: Alright, leader, okay. Just one at a time.

MORMON: One at a time.

CAMP: Okay.

MORMON: We call him a prophet of God.

CAMP: Alright. Well, let me ask you this: When he said what he did about Adam's plurality of wives, was he a prophet of God when he preached that or was he lying?

MORMON: No, he wasn't lying. He was preaching it as he believed it to be.

CAMP: But do you believe that a person like that...that a person like that would make statements, or should make statements that God has not revealed to them?

MORMON: I don't quite know what you're getting at.

CAMP: Well, in other words, he's preaching a sermon, and he's supposed to preach the truth, and you claim infallibility for him when he says "Thus saith the Lord." DO you think he ought to speak without divine authority?

MORMON: Well, what you're getting at then, do I accept or reject what he said about Adam's plurality of wives?

CAMP: If he had a plurality of wives. Right.

MORMON: I personally believe that Adam did have more than one wife.

CAMP: Well that's what I've been trying to get at all the time.

MORMON: Well ask the questions plainly and I'll answer it.

CAMP: That's what I asked you. Did Adam have more than one wife? That's plain isn't it?

MORMON: And I said yes.

CAMP: No, you said, I don't know, I think.

MORMON: Alright. To my understanding, I think he had more than one wife.

CAMP: Alright, that's what I was wanting. I was wanting to find out if you would say that or not. Alright. Is Adam and Michael, the archangel, the same person?

MORMON: We've been over that before. Yes, they are.

CAMP: They are?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Okay. Do you believe that God can create something from nothing?

MORMON: No, I do not.

CAMP: You do not believe that?

MORMON: No, I do not.

CAMP: Okay. I just wanted to establish that fact. Number fifteen. Did God create the spirits of men and angels and animals and plants before He created their physical bodies and put them here on earth?

MORMON: Alright, you are referring to the scripture known as the PEARL OF GREAT PRICE. I believe, yes, he did.

CAMP: In other words you believe that he created the spirits, let's take them one at a time, you believe he created the spirits of men, a long time, even possibly before he gave them bodies?

MORMON: Yes, I do.

CAMP: I mean this is not in the questions, but do you believe in the principle of reincarnation?

MORMON: No, I do not.

CAMP: Okay. I didn't think you did, but I wanted to find out. Do you believe that he created the spirits of angels before he created the actual intelligence and so forth?

MORMON: To my understanding angels and men are somewhat different. But, yes, I do.

CAMP: Let me ask you this: Do you believe angels have a physical body of flesh and bones?

MORMON: Some angels do, and some do not.

CAMP: What‘s the difference in them?

MORMON: Alright, to me there are approximately, I taught a class on this about a month and a half ago on angels, there were something like five classifications of angels. Some are people who have not been born physically here on the earth. Others are people who have been born here on the earth, have died and are resurrected. Other people...

CAMP: Now, let me stop you right there. Do you believe men become angels?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Is that in the line of progression before they become gods?

MORMON: Yes. No. It's something that can be done, but not necessarily has to be done.

CAMP: Oh, they can bypass that?

MORMON: Let me back track and say that angels, I will call them angelic messengers, I don't believe there is such a thing as hosts of people sitting around playing harps with halos.

CAMP: I don't either. I believe they are ministering spirits.

MORMON: Alright. They have a definite job to do. They don't flit around from place to place doing whatever they want.

CAMP: Yeh. I don't even know for sure they have wings, except the cherubims. and so forth.

MORMON: Well. You're getting close to Mormon doctrine. We do not believe those things.

CAMP: That's not Mormon doctrine; that's Bible doctrine.

MORMON: There's a difference (.) (?)

CAMP: There is a difference.

MORMON: I don't believe there is.

CAMP: Oh, I thought you said there is a difference.

MORMON: No, that was a question. There is a difference of interpretation.

CAMP: Alright. I just wanted to clarify what you said. Alright, now animals, do you believe animals have spirits...

MORMON: Yes, I do.

CAMP: Similar to what men have?

MORMON: Yes. Not in the same shape, of course.

CAMP: Then that brings up another question that's not on the list. Do you believe that animals can progress from where they are if they have spirits?

MORMON: No, I do not.

CAMP: What happens to the spirit of an animal when that animal dies?

MORMON: It would go to wherever the spirits of animals go.

CAMP: Well, heaven or hell, or where? Of course, we're going to get into hell probably later, but...

MORMON: I have no idea. That's something I hadn't ever thought about. Other than that I do believe that they do have spirits.

CAMP: You believe that they have eternal spirits let's say.

MORMON: Yes. Yes.

CAMP: Animals.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Rover. dogs...

MORMON: Plants, too.

CAMP: Plants, too!

MORMON: Yes. They were God's creation.

CAMP: In other words, when my tulip dies its spirit goes somewhere?

MORMON: Yes. Now that's speaking for myself. I have never read official church doctrine, "Be careful of your tulip because you don't want to crush their spirit.", but I would say yes, they do.

CAMP: Okay. Alright. Were the spirits of animals, plants, and man created before the creation of the earth or after?

MORMON: I would say before.

CAMP: Before?

MORMON: Before.

CAMP: In other words, He had all these spirits created before He ever had a place to put them?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Okay. Do you agree with the following doctrine? This is number seventeen on your list. Do you agree with the following doctrine found in the MORMON DOCTRINE, Page 157: "This earth was not the first of the Lord's creation." I think you have already answered this but again I'll ask you t0 answer 1t. "An infinite number or worlds have come rolling into existence at his command. Each is called earth; each is inhabited with his spirit children; each abides the particular law given to it; and each will play its part in the redemption, salvation, and exhaltation of that infinite host of the children of an almighty God."

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: You do agree with this statement?

MORMON: I have a copy of said book, but there is no such reference on that page, although my copy is a second- edition, evidently this is from the first edition, but that doesn't make any difference. I do believe it, yes.

CAMP: You do believe it?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright. (At this point the tape had to be turned over and a part of the discussion was missed. Bro. Camp had apparently asked question 18: Do you agree with the following statement made by Joseph F. Smith in his book, MAN! HIS ORIGIN AND DESTINY, Page 351, 355: "ALL men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity;" as spirits they were the "off—spr1ng of celestial parentage." However we missed the Mormon's answer and take up in the middle of the discussion following the question.)

CAMP: You will find out for me then who the universal Father and Mother are?

MORMON: I will try.

CAMP: Evidently Joseph F. Smith knows who they are or he wouldn't have written about them.

MORMON: Well, I'll write and try to find out. It may take a while.

CAMP: Alright. Number 19. Do you believe that the intelligent part of man has always existed?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: In other words it never had to be created or born or anything; it's always existed?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Now let me ask you if I’m correct. First of all there was the intelligence. Then the spirit was born. And the body's born?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Well, where did the intelligence come from?

MORMON: I do not know where it came from. It has, to my understanding, always existed. Period. Same as the universe.

CAMP: Do you have any Scripture reference from the Bible for that?

MORMON: No. The two references I have, one is from the DOCTRINES AND COVENANTS, and the other from the PEARL OF GREAT PRICE.

CAMP: Would you see if you can get me a Bible reference for that?

MORMON: Well, if it's not here on this chart, then I assume that none does exist.

CAMP: Okay. None exists. As far as you know.

MORMON: In the Bible.

CAMP: Right. Okay. Now then, number 20: Are some men born black with great disadvantages (and incidentally I'm not wanting to get into the racial issue. I don't know how you feel about it, and I don't care...)

MORMON: I disagree with my church on the racial issues...the one place I disagree.

CAMP: Alright. And I'll still ask. Are some men born black with great disadvantages while others are born white with great advantages because of obedience more or less in a pre-existent state?

MORMON: I do not believe so. Joseph Fielding Smith has said that he does not believe so. My answer is I do not know why blacks have black skin. Some church members have thought that pre-existence had something to do with earthly condition. I don't know. I personally believe that the Heavenly Father puts us where he in His infinite wisdom wants us to be.

CAMP: Now this was a statement, if I understand it right, made probably by Smith or a fellow named McConkey. Who is he?

MORMON: He is the son-in-law of Joseph Fielding Smith.

CAMP: Has he ever at any time been the head of the church?

MORMON: No.

CAMP: Alright. Is he one of the leading men though?

MORMON: One of about forty.

CAMP: One of about forty. Okay. In other words he is pretty authoritative even though he is not infallible.

MORMON: Well, in scripture as interpreted by Bruce R. McConkey. Open to my acceptance or rejection, according to how I, the spirit testifies to me.

CAMP: In other words you do not believe that the reason men are born black is because of some disobedience earlier?

MORMON: That is correct.

CAMP: Alright. Number 21: Where was the garden of Eden located according to Mormon doctrine?

MORMON: Northwest Missouri.

CAMP: Do you have any Biblical evidence?

MORMON: To my knowledge, no. None.

CAMP: Where, according to Mormon doctrine, will the New Jerusalem be built in the latter days?

MORMON: There will be two Jerusalems. The political capital in Jerusalem, Israel; a religious capital in Jackson County, Missouri.

CAMP: Jackson County, Missouri!

MORMON: Yes. Specifically the city of Independence.

CAMP: Independence, Missouri. Okay. Scripture?

MORMON: The teachings of Joseph Smith.

CAMP: The teachings of Joseph Smith. No Scripture for it?

MORMON: No.

CAMP: Okay. Why did Adam choose to eat the forbidden fruit after Eve had eaten of it? Do you think this was wise?

MORMON: Yes, I do believe it was wise. This is number 23 isn't it?

CAMP: Right.

MORMON: Adam ate the fruit to remain with Eve. They had been given two commandments. One not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And the second one was to multiply and replinish the earth. And to my way of understanding, they kept the greater of the two commandments. Which was to multiply and replinish the earth. And to do that Adam had to stay with Eve. So he willingly and knowingly partook of the forbidden fruit.

CAMP: Did they sin when they did it?

MORMON: They were told not to. So in that they did sin.

CAMP: They did sin?

MORMON: In that they disobeyed a commandment.

CAMP: Alright. But you do think it was wise for him to sin?

MORMON: Yes. Yes. To me it was wise for them to do what they did. Else they could not have kept the other commandment.

CAMP: Now, if she hadn't eaten, could they have kept the other commandment?

MORMON: No. They could not.

CAMP: Why?

MORMON: They had no ability to have children.

CAMP: Well, God told them to. Did He tell them to do something they could not do? H: No, He didn't.

CAMP: But you said they didn't have the ability and yet He told them to do it.

MORMON: Alright. Then they had to do what they had to do to get that ability.

CAMP: Would you say that that was part of their progression toward salvation when they sinned?

MORMON: No. No. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

CAMP: Now wait a minute. You said it was right for them to do it. But it was a sin.

MORMON: It was a sin, but it was something that they did have to do.

CAMP: They did have to do it?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: God so created Adam and Eve, or Adam and Eve were in a state that they had to sin?

MORMON: I guess I would have to say that. Yes.

CAMP: Then why in the books that you put out do you say you don't believe anything about--I'm talking about Mormons, this is your own material-- you don't believe anything about predestination, and yet you believe that they had to sin in order to progress. I can't understand how sin could ever be wise.

MORMON: I'll do more research on that.

CAMP: Alright. I think you need to.

MORMON: No, I feel I'm right. I need to back it up a little bit more.

CAMP: Alright. I want you to find me one Scripture -- now the Bible says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profjtable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" -- I want you to find me one Scripture that says that it is wise and right to sin. Because you said it is.

MORMON: I may have to back down and eat my words.

CAMP: I want you to find the Scripture, or back down and eat your words and say that the doctrine of your church is wrong.

MORMON: No. I will not say it's wrong.

CAMP: Well, that's what the doctrine of your church says.

MORMON: Well, which...are you quoting from me or quoting from the pamphlet?

CAMP: I'm quoting from this. It says there is--the pamphlet--that there is no room for the doctrine--I forget the exact wording--of predestination in it. And if I'm right it says that God does not make man a pawn, he persuades and directs--yes, here it is: “There is none of the doctrine of predestination in Mormon theology. None of it." And yet you said that man had to sin in order to reproduce.

MORMON: Not man, Adam.

CAMP: Well, Adam and Eve had to sin in order to reproduce.

MORMON: I'll do some further research on that.

CAMP: In other words they had to sin in order to keep another commandment. To do what was right, they had to do what was wrong.

MORMON: I'll stand on that for the present time.

CAMP: Alright. Twenty-four: Did Adam and Eve sin in partaking of the forbidden fruit? We've already covered that, but will you answer that again?

MORMON: Here I've got to eat my words. To me there was no sin; they did what was necessary. Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence in the garden and unable to sin. Even in eating the forbidden fruit they were only fulfilling the plan of salvation-- fulfilling the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.

CAMP: Alright. Let me ask you this: Why do men die? (A pause) "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. "The day that ye eat thereof thou shalt surely die." Why did He say that?

MORMON: Up to that time they did not, they had, who knows how long they had been in the garden? Thousands of years possibly.

CAMP: I haven't said.

MORMON: And with that death came into the world.

CAMP: In other words, why did the sin? Why did death come into the world? Because of sin, right? But you said now you're going to say it's not a sin for them to eat it because that was part of the plan of salvation. So your contradicting yourself. Aren’t you?

MORMON: Am I?

CAMP: You said just a moment ago that you were going to have to eat your words.

MORMON: Alright. I meant it. .

CAMP: Alright. Now I'm going to ask you again. Did Adam and Eve sin in partaking of the forbidden fruit?

MORMON: Yes. My one answer was yes and my other one was no. I'll stick with yes right now at the present time. I discussed this with my wife, and she says no. But I'll stick with yes.

CAMP: You're going to stick with yes, that they did sin.

MORMON: Yes, they were told not to partake of the forbidden fruit, and they did when they were told not to. That was disobeying and that would be, that is, sin.

CAMP: Then a moment ago you said this was part of the plan of salvation. So then sin is a part of the plan of salvation. You said they sinned. You said this was a necessary part of salvation. So then a person must sin in order to be saved.

MORMON: No, not a person. Adam and Eve had to do that they did.

CAMP: Adam and Eve had to sin in order to be saved.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Okay. Alright. Does man have the ability within himself, within himself, to choose to do that which is spiritually good?

MORMON: Yes. He does.

CAMP: Alright. He does have the power within himself.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: To do what's good. Uh, I think we agreed that I would do the talking.

Another Mormon: Oh, I'm sorry.

CAMP: Alright. What is the difference between Jesus Christ and other men?

MORMON: Of course as our elder brother begotten in the flesh as well as spirit by God, and he is now resurrected. But the difference is he is the first born, the elder brother.

CAMP: By first born what do yo mean?

MORMON: First born of the Father. First spirit child creation.

CAMP: Alright. I mean I think I understand what you are saying. I don't...

MORMON: We go back to the question we had a while ago about creating spirits. God is one and so on, creating the people for this earth. And the first one created to my understanding and belief was Jesus Christ.

CAMP: Alright, let me ask you this then in connection with this: Who was the mother of Jesus? Who gave Him His physical body?

MORMON: His physical body here on earth? Mary.

CAMP: Mary. You're going to stick to that?

MORMON: Yes. I've never heard of anybody else being his mother.

CAMP: Alright. Who was His Father? Physical.

MORMON: God.

CAMP: Alright. Then you believe in the virgin birth?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Okay.

MORMON: I'm going to pull off my coat.

CAMP: Alright. If you want to we can close the window and turn on the air conditioner. I don't know how long it will take it to get cooled off.

MORMON: The noise might disturb the...

CAMP: That's what I was a little afraid of, that's why I left it open. Alright. Did Adam begat the fleshly body of Jesus Christ?

MORMON: No, he did not.

CAMP: He did not?

MORMON: No, he did not.

CAMP: In the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES this statement appears: "When the virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the father had begotten him in his own likeness. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family. when He, Christ, took a tabernacle, it was begotten of his father in heaven after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain and Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. Now it says, Jesus; our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden and who is our father in heaven." Who was that "character"?

MORMON: Well, I have explained that on several occasions; he must have been eating green onions because I do not believe it.

CAMP: Who must have been eating green onions?

MORMON: Brigham Young. I do not believe that statement.

CAMP: Alright, you do not believe what the official head of the church says.

MORMON: In that occasion, no, I do not.

CAMP: Alright. Who was being married according to Mormon doctrine, at the marriage of Cana of Galilee when Jesus turned the water into wine?

MORMON: Jesus.

CAMP: He was getting married?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Who was he being married to?

MORMON: Mary and Martha.

CAMP: Mary and Martha?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: In other words, you believe Jesus was a polygamist?

MORMON: Yes, I do.

CAMP: Alright.

MORMON: According to Biblical custom, the bridegroom was responsible for the wine. Why was Christ responsible for the wine there?

CAMP: His mother came to him and asked him about it. Oh, incidentally, which Mary?

MORMON: The Mary and Martha that were possibly sisters.

CAMP: Oh, in other words...okay.

MORMON: No, not incest.

CAMP: No. That's why I wanted to establish that. Do you believe that there is a general and unconditional salvation, you've already answered this, that comes to all men and an individual, conditional salvation which comes only to those who choose it?

MORMON: Now, yes, we have answered that. Yes, I do believe that there is a salvation that comes to everybody. I believe that there is another thing called exaltation which is after the salvation that depends upon the faithfulness that one shows--the commandments that one keeps--in other words works.

CAMP: Alright. In other words, the conditional salvation depends on works.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: The unconditional, you have 1t whether you want it or not.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Okay. Who, if any. outs1de the Mormon Church will receive individual salvation which will entitle him to heaven? In other words what I’m basically asking is, can anybody be saved outside of the Mormon Church?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: I'm talking about achieving...

MORMON: The Celestial Kingdom?

CAMP: How far can you go?

MORMON: You can go to the Telestial or the Terrestial Kingdom, which are worlds where there is no godhood possible.

CAMP: Who rules those worlds?

MORMON: Jesus rules the Terrest1al. And the Holy Ghost rules the Telestial.

CAMP: Scripture.

MORMON: First Corinthians 15:35.

CAMP: Does it say Jesus rules one and the Holy Spirit rules the other? That's what I want to emphasize.

MORMON: No, it mentions the different kingdoms.

CAMP: I know what it mentions there, and I'm not going to get into a discussion on that Scripture because we'll run out of time.

MORMON: And then we go on to scripture given to us by Joseph Smith.

CAMP: Oh, okay. Alright. Are there some sins that the blood of Christ cannot cleanse even i£ one repents and believes and is baptized?

MORMON: I believe there is one sin that the blood of Jesus Christ cannot cleanse you from.

CAMP: What is that?

MORMON: That's the one of denying the Holy Ghost. After one has had a sure knowledge, and that comes only to members of the Mormon Church.

CAMP: In THE DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, Volume One, page 135 and l34 -- I don't know why they've got it reversed -- well I guess because of the order -- man may commit certain grevious sins, plural, according to his light and knowledge which will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. Now you said one.

MORMON: Well, I was thinking of the one of denying the Holy Ghost.

CAMP: Do you believe there are others?

MORMON: Possibly this person is thinking of adultery and shedding innocent blood.

CAMP: In other words you believe that adultery would put a person beyond the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

MORMON: I don't necessarily believe that.

CAMP: Does the church believe that? To your knowledge?

MORMON: I've never read anything on it yes or no.

CAMP: Well, I mean, you mentioned that, that's the only reason I asked you.

MORMON: This person again, THE DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, is Dr. Joseph Fielding Smith, that wrote before he was a prophet. So, again this is his interpretation.

CAMP: What must one do in order to have and enjoy eternal life?

MORMON: Alright. First of all one must be baptized by somebody having the authority, saved by the atonement of Christ, and then gain exaltation through his good works.

CAMP: Alright. I'm not going to go into some things that I think you contradicted right there, but I won't. Will one who has never been baptized be damned?

MORMON: Yes. (After hesitation)

CAMP: He will be?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright.

MORMON: Your concept of damnation may be somewhat different than mine, but...

CAMP: Alright what is our concept of damnation?

MORMON: My concept of damnation is not being able to reach the Celestial Kingdom.

CAMP: In other words, he's damned if he doesn't reach the Celestial kingdom?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Then he wouldn't be saved, would he?

MORMON: Saved from what? Now we get back to the death-resurrection bit. This is to me what salvation is.

CAMP: In other words, now, now if I understood you correctly--eternal life then is in the Celestial K1ngdom.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: How long are the other kingdoms?

MORMON: They are eternal also. The eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom is what we call eternal increase where you obtain to godhood and create your own world.

CAMP: Alright. Is one who has never been baptized damned?

MORMON: I've answered that already.

CAMP: Just answer yes or no, we won t discuss it.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright. After one has been baptized does he receive the Holy Ghost baptism that is manifest by speaking in tongues?

MORMON: I personally have seen people speaking in tongues; I have done so myself for a purpose in a language recognizable, Portuguese, as a matter of fact. And for a specific purpose --I was a missionary in Portugal, Brazil--not some jibberish that serves some useless purpose or confusion.

CAMP: I agree with your interpretation of what tongues are. I mean, I question whether you spoke in them or not.

MORMON: I had been down there too short of a time to be able to do What I did.

CAMP: Had you been studying the language?

MORMON: Yes, I had.

CAMP: Okay.

MORMON: To me Pentecost was...

CAMP: It wouldn't have been an unknown tongue if you had been studying.

MORMON: Well, no. Pentecost was speaking in a recognizable language.

CAMP: I agree. I agree.

MORMON: Amazing. We agree on something.

CAMP: Alright. The question that I asked was, is, after he's been baptized, does he receive the Holy Ghost baptism? Do all receive it?

MORMON: We believe that they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

CAMP: But not the Holy Ghost baptism necessarily.

MORMON: Not necessarily.

CAMP: Okay, you believe that there's a difference. (Pause) I'm not trying to trick you.

MORMON: No, I don't know that there is a difference.

CAMP: You don't know?

MORMON: No, I do not know.

CAMP: Okay, you ought to find out. Alright. Is it possible for one who has repented, believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, been baptized by immersion, had hands laid on him and received the gift of the Holy Ghost to ever be lost and condemned?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: You do believe it is?

MORMON: Yes, I do.

CAMP: Alright. Or there is the possibility.

MORMON: Yes, there is. He could lose the potential that he had and lose the rewards that he could have had. Pointing out the two kingdoms again.

CAMP: But, would he be condemned? And if so, to where would he be condemned?

MORMON: He would condemn himself to a lesser place.

CAMP: Is one saved through his own acts and by his own merits and works?

MORMON: We get back to the saved bit. No, I do not believe that we are saved by our own works. We are exalted by our own works.

CAMP: Alright. I‘m talking about reaching eternal life. Do you believe eternal life is received as a result of works? Or is it without works?

MORMON: A combination of works and faith.

CAMP: Okay. What about Romans 6:23 that says the gift of God is eternal life?

MORMON: Alright. He's giving it to us.

CAMP: If you earn it.

MORMON: Yeh, if you earn it.

CAMP: Okay. Number 41: What is a celestial marriage?

MORMON: Marriages performed in an appointed place by someone having the correct authority that is a marriage bind1ng for time and eternity.

CAMP: Alright. In an appointed place. Where is the appointed place?

MORMON: A temple o£ God.

CAMP: Where is the temple?

MORMON: There are approximately sixteen of them.

CAMP: Sixteen?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright. What is the appointed authority?

MORMON: Someone who has the authority to act in the name God, to bind on earth and in heaven.

CAMP: Who would that be? Would you have that authority?

MORMON: I do not at the present time, no. I have not been ordained or set apart for this type of work. I could possibly in the future, I would be alowed to do so.

CAMP: Alright. What is the difference between a celestial marriage and a regular marriage?

MORMON: To us a regular marriage ends when you die. A celestial marriage continues forever.

CAMP: Does celestial marriage affect one's salvation in any way?

MORMON: Yes, without it you cannot obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

CAMP: In other words you cannot obtain the Celestial Kingdom without a celestial marriage.

MORMON: Right.

CAMP: Performed in an appointed place by an appointed person.

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Then if a person couldn't get to that appointed place and appointed person, he'd just have no hope of that Celestial Kingdom.

MORMON: No. There is a provision for that.

CAMP: Oh. What provision?

MORMON: It is called vicarious work or work for the dead which is an ordinance or ordinances performed in the temples.

CAMP: In other words you not only perform baptisms for the dead, but you perform marriages for the dead, also?

MORMON: Yes. Only if they were married while they were living. We don't go pairing up strange people.

CAMP: Alright. Where was the church of the Lord Jesus Christ before 1830?

MORMON: It was not upon the face of the earth.

CAMP: Alright. In other words, you own that from about early second century until 1830, April 6, 1830, there was no true New Testament church in the world?

MORMON: No, there was not.

CAMP: Can an individual be saved outside of the Mormon Church and reach the Celestial Kingdom?

MORMON: No, he cannot.

CAMP: Now, I didn't have that last part in there because...

MORMON: That changes my answer.

CAMP: What do you have? Go ahead and give your answer.

MORMON: How many times must we cover this salvation bit? We've gone over that I don't know what, half a dozen times already. To me salvation is saved from eternal death, which came by Adam's fall we all die; in Christ we are all made alive.

CAMP: Will he remain saved if he can be if he remains outside the Mormon church? Number 46. An individual who remains outside the Mormon church when he could be in it, could he be saved?

MORMON: Now if you are speaking of the Celestial Kingdom, no, he could not be.

CAMP: How were men saved before April 6, 1830? During that time?

MORMON: The work is done for them by proxy in the temples, and in the spirit world they are preached to where they accept it or reject it. Because we do the work in the temple for the dead, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are automatically put into the Celestial Kingdom. They still have the ability to accept or reject.

CAMP: In other words, if I understand you correctly, you perform marriages and baptisms to cover people prior to April 6, 1830?

MORMON: To me its only just. If there was no church on the earth, they had no chance. '

CAMP: Alright. Now, you said a few moments ago you don't just go out here and go out pairing up people and perform a wedding for the dead. How do you ‘know who was married and who wasn't before April 6, 1830?

MORMON: By records.

CAMP: By what records?

MORMON: Court records, family records, census records.

CAMP: Oh, in other words you go around court houses and get lists?

MORMON: Oh, yes, we do.

CAMP: And perform marriages for those people?

MORMON: No, you perform for your ancestors.

CAMP: For your ancestors?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: What about all those people that weren't ancestors of Mormons?

MORMON: Well, they are pretty much left alone until some of their descendants find them.

CAMP: In other words, their salvation is entirely dependent--now let's say that I don't have any, I don't have any relatives that I know of that are Mormons, or ever have been--so accord1ngly, all of my ancestors and so forth will never reach the Celestial kingdom?

MORMON: Not unless somebody does their work.

CAMP: In other words salvation strictly by proxy.

MORMON: For them, yes. Exaltation, not salvation. They’ll get that regardless.

CAMP: Well, alright. But someone could get exaltation for some other individual?

MORMON: They earn it themselves. What is done in the temple is only unlocking a door.

CAMP: Well, where do they earn it then? If they are already in the kingdom where do they earn it?

MORMON: They are not in the Kingdom until they accept it and do whatever they have to do.

CAMP: Where are they if they are not in one of the kingdoms?

MORMON: That only comes after the final judgment.

CAMP: Alright.

MORMON: I’ve got you confused now, don't I?

CAMP: No. I'm not confused. (End of tape--2nd half hour.)

CAMP: Alright. III Nephi 8:3. .

MORMON: 18:3?

CAMP: 18:3. I don't know why I keep going to eight.

MORMON: Yes, this is after his resurrection when he appeared to the Nephites.

CAMP: In other words, he instituted it in two places?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: And among two different groups of people?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Among the Nephites?

MORMON: Nephites.

CAMP: Nephites? Alright.

MORMON: So that does not make me disagree with the _____(?). Since this is sometime after his resurrection.

CAMP: What elements do you use in the observance of the Lord's Supper?

MORMON: Bread and water.

CAMP: Bread and water?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: You do not use the fruit of the vine as laid out in the Scriptures?

MORMON: No. This goes back to a church custom in the early days of the church. There was an attempt to poison the congregation of church members with poisoned wine. And the Lord told Joseph Smith that it mattered not what you use. It's the spirit behind it.

CAMP: Alright, let me ask you this. This happened. I'm not just reaching in the air and getting something. This happened where a church--it wassn't a Mormon Church but it was a church that they used Pepsi Cola and hamburgers. Would you say that would be alright in the light of what the lard supposedly told Joseph Smith?

CAMP: No. This is completely out of the Spirit. Now in Brazil where we had problems with pure water, we used bottled water. And on occasion where there was no regular white bread, we used corn bread. To me this was within the, what I would call, the spirit of the law. In conflict of that. This other to me is a travesty or sacrilege.

CAMP: Alright. Concerning the future, upon what continent do you believe that Zion will be built?

MORMON: The North American Continent.

CAMP:, When Christ reigns on earth, where will he locate his throne?

MORMON: He will rule from two different places.

CAMP: Two different places?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright. Where are they?

MORMON: Jerusalem, and Independence, Missouri, or what we call the New Jerusalem.

CAMP: Now, Jerusalem, Israel, in the lands of the Bible and then in Independence, Missouri?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright. Was Jesus and Lucifer brothers?

MORMON: Yes, they were.

CAMP: They were brothers?

MORMON: We believe that Lucifer was the second born.

CAMP: The second?

MORMON: And there are some that even conjecture that it was the other way around.

CAMP: He was the firstborn?

MORMON: Right. I somehow believe that he might have been the first born.

CAMP: Of course you do agree that Lucifer was the one who fell and became Satan?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright. I just wanted to be sure. What is the Celestial Kingdom, and who will be there? I think we’ve pretty well covered that. So, but I do wamt to get something on these next two. What is the Terrestial Kingdom?

MORMON: The Terrestial Kingdom is the middle kingdom.

CAMP: Do you have any idea where it will be located?

MORMON: No I do not. Uhh, Paul mentions the sun and the moon and the stars, figurative. I do believe the Celestial Kingdom will be here on the earth.

CAMP: The Celestial Kingdom will be here on this earth?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright.

MORMON: Although I do believe that is the temporary-for those that have the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will then eventually go up on their own where ever they go.

CAMP: And start another world?

MORMON: Right.

CAMP: Okay. What is the Telestial Kingdom?

MORMON: That is the lower, the lowest.

CAMP: Who will be in the Telestial Kingdom?

MORMON: Murderers, thieves, evil people.

CAMP: What will be the conditions there? Will they be punished, or will they be living in bliss? Or what?

MORMON: No, they certainly will not living in bliss. I don't know their punishment--I do not believe your hell fire and burning type hell.

CAMP: In other words you don’t believe that anyone, let me get this clear, I don't think that this is a question but it's come up two or three times, so I want to get it clear-you don’t believe that there is a lake which burns with fire and brimstone...

MORMON: No, I do not.

CAMP: Which is the second death into which all those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life are cast.

MORMON: Well, no, I do not believe that it is a lake of fire like that. Now I believe there is a place like that. And we call it perdition where those who have done the unpardonable sins, Luciefer and his angels, will be there.

CAMP: Will there be any men?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Women?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: There?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Okay. Who are the sons of perdition?

MORMON: Those who deny the Holy Ghost, after having knowledge.

CAMP: Alright. Is it a sin for a man to have more than one wife either openly or secretly?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: It is a sin?

MORMON: It is against the laws of the land. And the church has made it a sin punishable by excommunication.

CAMP: Alright. In other words, the church has made it a sin?

MORMON: Yes. They have placed a prohibition, a ban or whatever you want to call it on the practice of polygamy at the present time.

CAMP: Okay. Who were the Nephites and where were they located?

MORMON: Alright. The Nephites were descendants of a man by the name of Lehi who came from Jerusalem about 600 B.C. Lehi was a prophet; at the time warned the people of impending disaster; nobody listened to him, and by the way some of his writings. or his name at 'least and some other scratchings have been found on a wall in a cave in Jerusalem, and we're quite excited about that. Anyway, they left Jerusalem about 600 B.C. and came to the new world, North or South America, whatever you want to call it.

CAMP: Alright. Do you believe that the sixty-six books contained in the Holy Bible can be called the Word of God?

MORMON: I accept them as the word of God, but a flawed word, flawed by errors, deletions, and additions.

CAMP: A flawed word?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Alright.

MORMON: And I think you realize too that we do not have all of the Bible. There are a number of books that we do not have that are mentioned in the Bible.

CAMP: But it doesn't necessarily say they are part of the Bible.

MORMON: Well uhh…

CAMP: The writings of some of the philosophers are mentioned there, but that doesn’t mean they are part of Bible.

MORMON: Oooo, scripture; writings of the prophets and so on.

CAMP: Alright. Are the Scriptures all-sufficient? I'm talking about the Bible, as a rule of faith and practice?

MORMON: I've answered that in my first reaction as no. We don't have all the old world scriptures. There are many, many missing portions. And I'll stick with no. They are not all-sufficient to my knowledge. I have three more books of scripture that to me make more complete...

CAMP: Alright. Let me ask you this-- and this is not in the list if you don't care to answer it, you don't have to. But l just want to ask you, I think I know what the answer will be, but do you feel that these three books, COVENANTS AND DOCTRINE, ...
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS, the BOOK OF MORMON, and what’s the other one?

MORMON: THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE.

CAMP: THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE are just as authorative as what we know as the Bible.

MORMON: Yes, I do.

CAMP: You believe' they are just as authorative?

MORMON: Yes, I do.

CAMP: Alright. At what age does Mormon boy normally become a deacon?

MORMON: Twelve.

CAMP: At the age of twelve. What do you do about the Scripture that says he must be the husband of one wife?

MORMON: Well, he'd better get to work. I don't know. I shouldn't have answered so quickly.

CAMP: In the next world will a man's wife continue to bear children?

MORMON: If. they are in the Celestial Kingdom.

CAMP: Alright. That's what I had in mind. Will a man have more than one wife in the Celestial Kingdom?

MORMON: I don't know. I would assume yes. I would hope, yes. But I cannot say definitely yes.

CAMP: Is it permissible for him to have more than one wife in this world or in eternity? In this world, let's just leave it to that.

MORMON: Now, you've got to break that down just a little bit. In this world right now it is not permissible for him to have more than one at a time.

CAMP: Now, because of some things you have said, I want to ask you this question. You can answer it if you want to. Do you believe that the law God teaches that you ought to have more than one wife--I'll include your three books. Do you believe that the law of God teaches that you ought to have more than one wife?

MORMON: I can't put my finger on any specific scriptural passage. Church custom, the teachings of Mr. Brigham Young definitely indicated that a man needed to have more than one wife to get to the Celestial Kingdom.

CAMP: Well, in other words, this, what I’m getting to is do you believe that if the law of the land did not say you should not do it that you should?

MORMON: I personally would say yes.

CAMP: In other words, you believe that if the law of the land allowed it, you ought to practice polygamy?

MORMON: Yes, I do.

CAMP: Alright. .

MORMON: I believe that. That's not church position. You'll never get the church to say one way or the other.

CAMP: Well, when Brigham Young was the leader, he did.

MORMON: He sure did.

CAMP: And Joseph Smith did.

MORMON: Yes?

CAMP: Yes.

MORMON: Not publicly.

CAMP: I think so.

MORMON: Did he? I'd like to read it.

CAMP: Alright, we'll look it up later. I mean I don't want to take the time right now, okay?

MORMON: Alright.

CAMP: Alright. Maybe I've got it marked. Let me see. Just a moment. I don't see--I thought I had it marked, but I--Oh, I'm in the wrong book, that's why. No, this is Brigham Young that set forth that. I've read a statement supposedly made by Joseph Smith, but it was Brigham Young.

MORMON: To my knowledge he never uttered one statement in his lifetime in public advocating polygamy.

CAMP: Alright. If one does not believe and confess that Joseph Smith is a prophet, can he be saved and reach Celestial Kingdom?

MORMON: No, he cannot reach the Celestial kingdom.

CAMP: In other words, he must believe in Joseph Smith. as a prophet?

MORMON: Yes, he must.

CAMP: In order to reach the Celestial Kingdom?

MORMON: Yes, he must.

CAMP: Then you would say that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom depends on faith in Joseph Smith?

MORMON: Yes.

CAMP: Partially?

MORMON: Partially, yes.

CAMP: I'm not trying to commit you fully.

MORMON: Yeh, okay.

CAMP: Alright. If one denies the veracity of the BOOK OF MORMON, is he an anti-Christ or of anti-Christ?

MORMON: I believe that he is.

CAMP: In other words when I say that I don't believe that this is authoritative and that it's truthful, you say that I'm of anti-Christ?

MORMON: You are partaking of the spirit of anti-Christ.

CAMP: Alright.

MORMON: We believe that the book of Mormon is a witness for Christ. If you deny that witness then you are denying the Saviour.

CAMP: Alright. I just wanted to know where I stand in your thinking.

MORMON: Do you deny?

CAMP: Yes, I deny!

MORMON: Alright. I would like that on the record.

CAMP: I deny it, and...Well, I won't go into why I deny it, but, because it would take quite a length of time. Alright. If one has repented, believed, and has been baptized, etc. and then commits certain types of sins and is lost, in other words he's lost, what is necessary for him to be saved again, and attain, well, we'll say the Celestial Kingdom?

MORMON: He must be baptized again for the remission of his sins if he has sufficiently repented.

CAMP: Alright. In other words, you'd baptize him over and over again?

MORMON: No, I would baptize him a second time.

CAMP: Well, what if he did it again?

MORMON: Then I think he's lost his chance.

CAMP: In other words...

MORMON: That's my position. I have read no church position on this.

CAMP: In other words you believe if he makes two stabs at it and he fails on the second chance, then he has no third chance?

MORMON: Right. Because he did not then truly repent the second time around.

CAMP: Well, what about the first time? Did he truly repent the first time if he fell?

MORMON: What do you mean?

CAMP: Alright. He repents, he's baptized, everything. Then he falls away from that. Now you say if he repented and did it the second time and fell away, it would be evidence he didn't really repent.

MORMON: Right.

CAMP: But what about the first time? If he falls away the first time after he gets there, did he really repent in the first place?

MORMON: We don't know. It makes you wonder.

CAMP: Well, I mean how do you know the difference in the two places?

MORMON: You don't.

CAMP: You don't. So you're...

MORMON: Now I'm again speaking on my own.

CAMP: Alright. Okay. Does God honor marriages performed outside the auspices of the Mormon Church?

MORMON: Recognized only in the legalistic point of view, and only until death. If the person who performed it was legally constituted by the government. I can't see God recognizing the spiritual value of a minister who we would deny having any authority at all.

CAMP: In other words you would deny that any marriage I perform would be recognized by God.

MORMON: I believe that it will be recognized by him only in that you are legally" entitled to do this by the state of Illinois.

CAMP: But from the spiritual standpoint...

MORMON: Right. I don't think you have a shred of authority.

CAMP: Alright. Can one married outside of a Mormon temple ever become a god, according to Mormon doctrine?

MORMON: We've answered that before. No they cannot.

CAMP: They cannot. If so, what do they become? Or what may they become?

MORMON: They may become, uhh...become? Anything short of...

CAMP: Could they become an angel?

MORMON: Possibly.

CAMP: Alright. May a celestial marriage be performed in behalf of someone who is dead and was married outside the temple?

MORMON: Yes. We've covered that before. Yes, they can.

CAMP: It can be. Do you agree with the following doctrine set forth by Heber Kimball in the Salt Lake City Tabernacle on February 1, 1857, and reported in the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES Volume 4, page 209: "My wives have got to live their religion. Suppose I lost the whole of them before I go into the spiritual world, do you think I will be destitute there? No. The Lord says there are more there than there are here. They increase there a good deal faster than they do here, because they do not call on the doctors to kill their offspring. In the spiritual world we will go to Brother Joseph, and he will say to us, 'Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes, Where are your wives?' 'They are back yonder; they would not come with us.' 'Never mind,’ says Joseph, 'here are thousands; have all you want.'"

MORMON: I do agree with that. I brought along my volume four of the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, The quote is all there, except you've left out a number of sentences between with no indication whatsoever to me that you were misquoting.

CAMP: Well, let me see it. I might have. I wasn't trying to be deceptive.

MORMON: In fact, I've xeroxed off the page.

CAMP: I figured you had access to it; I wasn't trying to be deceptive or anything when I did that.

MORMON: I'm quite a collector of church books, and so usually if I don't have it I know somebody who does.

CAMP: A1right, now, where I copied it from, he didn't put the elipses in there either. So, I mean a case of --I mean he may have, I don't, I mean, but he--you do agree that he said these things? You agreed with that idea.

MORMON: Yes. Knowing who Heber C. Kimball was and his attitude and his background, which, he was semi-literate to say the least.

CAMP: Yeh, I could tell that.

MORMON: His way of talking was crude. I agree with his general idea, though.

CAMP: Alright. Even if you do not believe in plural marriages either secretly sealed or otherwise-- secretly, sealed, or otherwise, is it not true that during much of the Mormon Church's history plural marriages have been practiced?

MORMON: Now do you mean at the present time?

CAMP: Regardless of how you feel about it now, you've expressed your feelings. Is it not true that during much of the Mormon Church's history plural marriages have been practiced?

MORMON: As an official doctrine of the church it was practiced up to 1890.

CAMP: Are there not some who still practice it secretly? Now, you're not going to be condemning anybody. Don't give me any names or anything but are there not some who still practice it?

MORMON: Yes, there are probably several thousand. But they do it outside of the Mormon Church. They are not members of the Mormon Church. There are several little schismatic groups. But they are not, and the minute they are discovered by the church authorities, they are excommunicated.

CAMP: Alright. Now I've added one question. But we’ve already discussed that so that’s all the questions. I’ve, I appreciate your coming. I've appreciated all of this. And if you want to set a time to get together again I'm going to be gone for two weeks, but I'd be glad for us to make an appointment and maybe we can, if you want to designate some particular things that we discuss at that time we could.

MORMON: Well, let me listen to the tape again. We're going to be gone part of (at this point the tape must have been turned off and later turned back on...)

CAMP: I realize that you cannot speak officially for the church. I would appreciate, if you're going out there to get recharged if you could get an official answer on these questions.

MORMON: I doubt that it would be given.

CAMP: You doubt that it would?

MORMON: I really do.

CAMP: Alright.

MORMON: I could get answers of several people as to how they believe.

CAMP: But you doubt that you could get an official answer?

MORMON: Can you get me official Baptist Church statements.

CAMP: No one can speak officially for the Baptist Church.

MORMON: Okay.

CAMP: The Bible is the all-sufficient rule of faith and practice of Baptists. And there is no "the Baptist Church." There are Baptist Churches just like there were churches in New Testament times.

MORMON: Each independent (and something else, but he was speaking very low).

CAMP: Right.

MORMON: Okay.

CAMP: Alright. Let's, I appreciate your coming, and I'll be glad, like I say to get together again and, I mean we could go into discussing the differences and argue some of these. But I think that was our agreement that we would just, you'd just answer them and I appreciate it and I didn't mean to get, I wasn't really scoffing. I was just amazed a time or two. But even if I was scoffing, so I mean, I'm, I know I was at a time or two there because I, I just, it floored me that you were so bold to set forth some things that somebody has been denying.

MORMON: Well like I said at the first I speak for myself. And what I am speaking is from what I have studied; conclusions that I have come to. There's a lot of things that I have admitted tonight that I did not know. But it's not going to be a long time that I don't know these. Tonight brought out a few things that I don't know that I will find out in the near future. To me this is the purpose of life. To find out. So for another reason I appreciate that for talking to you.

CAMP: Well, it'll make you and me both study. Again I say if you, when you get back, if you'd like to get together again on some specific things and sit down and debate them, privately. I mean, I'll debate you publicly for that matter.

MORMON: I think‘ the year of debates is long gone.

CAMP: Do you think it's wrong though?

MORMON: Yes, I do. I don't see where...

CAMP: Do you think it was ever right?

MORMON: No, I don't.

CAMP: What about when Jesus, when Paul disputed daily in the school of Tyrannus, do you believe he was right or wrong?.

MORMON: I believe Paul was doing his thing. Debating is not my thing.

CAMP: Okay.

Mike McCoskey: Would any of the others debate?

MORMON: I don't think they're allowed to.

CAMP: Now what's the difference? I mean we're just chatting now. What is the difference between you and these fellows?

MORMON: These people are full time missionaries. They serve for a specific period of time, for two years then they go back to whatever they are doing. Go back to school.

CAMP: Now you've passed that?

MORMON: I did that.

CAMP: Well, now what are you called?

MORMON: I am a lay member of the church.

CAMP: Oh, you don't preach and teach, you're not what we would call the pastor?

MORMON: No, I'm not.

CAMP: Of the local assembly?

MORMON: No.

CAMP: Do you have pastors of local assemblies?

MORMON: Yes. Yes. We call them bishops.

CAMP: Well, the word episcopos means bishop. I mean we're not offensive to the idea of a bishop. As long as he's not over a bunch of churches.

MORMON: No he is just the bishop of the local congregation.

CAMP: And over other pastors. I'm through if you are.

MORMON: Yes.

THE END